‘You can’t have a one-stop solution to illegal mining’

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JEREMY MAGGS: Now, the Minister of Mineral Resources and Energy, Gwede Mantashe, you might have heard us reporting yesterday, says, the number of illegal miners from Lesotho who tragically died underground at the Virginia Mine in the Free State, could increase from the original number of 31 that has been reported. This is the latest in the ongoing problem, tragedy of illegal mining in South Africa, it’s been long and well documented.

So the question, I guess, is does government, and for that matter, the sector more broadly, have a grip on the problem? We’re going to talk now to Sahlulele Luzipo, who is the chairperson of the Portfolio Committee on Mineral Resources. A very warm welcome to you. I think before we discuss the problem, we have to acknowledge the tragedy of the situation, don’t we?

SAHLULELE LUZIPO: Good day to you, Jeremy, and your listenership. Oh, yes, most definitely. This is something that no person could just ignore, and we must say that it is one of the most regrettable incidences that we could have as a country,

JEREMY MAGGS: In your opinion, is the practice getting worse?

SAHLULELE LUZIPO: The problem, Jeremy, I said to one interview that the issue of illegal mining, it can’t be just summarised within a period of five or ten minutes because it’s a very complex phenomenon in South Africa. For instance, you’ve got what we would call illegal mining, which is something that we measure in the form of small-scale and artisanal mining, which means it is mining that can be made legal.

The second part is that you’ve got illegal mining activities that will require just to tighten up certain screws, make it a point that there is larger participation of South Africans. I always make an example and say, if you look at the chrome industry, you go to areas like Sekhukhune [District Municipality] if I’m not mistaken … Steelpoort in Limpopo, and other places. Then you look in your … region, which is around Rustenburg, you would see that there is illegal mining that is taking place, but it has not reached what is being defined as the phenomenon of illegal mining, the risky and violent one, predominantly in the gold industry.

JEREMY MAGGS: And it’s that particular issue that I want to focus on, and my question to you, do you believe the mining sector is doing enough in terms of managing security and old shafts? And should more pressure be put on the mining industry to seal these shafts and holes?

SAHLULELE LUZIPO: Look, it’s difficult, Jeremy, let’s take this case now, the shaft was sealed, they had done what we call ‘backfilled’, which means you put rubble on the ventilation shaft. What then happens is that the moment you seal that like a stand, if you are building house, you seal that area like a stand, they start digging on the side of the stand, they move, and once they go below, they’re then able to find the shaft and then go down in that area, which is very difficult.

Now again, you must also understand I’m not an engineer, I’m not an expert in that field, but the report now is that when they put the rubble, they do what we call ‘backfilling’, they close the shaft.

It means you will need now to establish a new shaft because the only part you have now that you can access is the ventilation shaft, which is the one that is emitting dangerous methane gas.

That is why I’m saying even if you talk about sealing, most of the areas they have been sealed, they have been plugged off, but still even the signal that this area has been sealed becomes an invitation to those people to understand that it means the entrance is much closer when you go through that.

JEREMY MAGGS: I do understand the problem, Mr Luzipo, but what it also means is the current solution is not working. We need a better way of doing that. To what extent then is your committee engaging with the mining sector to find a solution to prevent more lives from being lost?

SAHLULELE LUZIPO: Jeremy, that’s why I said you can’t have a one-stop solution and that is why we said even if you look at the report of the three committees, of the portfolio committees, that this is a matter that requires first, you’ve got what one would call an incident of child labour and child slavery because most of those boys, if you were to look now, the ages of those people who are coming there, somebody says, then you must tighten up the rules.

I said, it actually means if I’m, for instance, now I’m a Lesotho person, as long as I bring in a child to South Africa, I must block that child. That is wrong because we’re making an assumption of guilt to a person who might be coming here genuinely. So it actually means, it also requires that SADC (Southern African Development Community) must begin to take the issue of illegal mining very seriously, including managing the transfer of explosives, because no matter how much you would try as one department, you will not be able to succeed, including, by the way, making sure that even officials of the department who might be given responsibility to look at these things, they go through some process of what we would call a screening of some sort, so that they can be seen that they’re also capable for the job. Because we can’t look at illegal mining outside corruption, it is part of the pandemic system of corruption that we might be having.

JEREMY MAGGS: Mr Luzipo, you’re talking about it being a regional problem and I do accept that. I also understand that the Lesotho foreign minister (Dr Pontšo Matumelo Sekatlehas) admitted that the poor economy is contributing to the problem. But having said that, would it not be easier to draft new legislation that would enable government to prosecute more effectively and even set up specialised units with prosecutorial skills to enable this problem to be solved, otherwise more lives are going to be lost.

SAHLULELE LUZIPO: There is Jeremy, let’s be clear, there is the problem again is that you first have to conduct illegal mining activities. Secondly, it must be proven that what you are in possession of [is related to illegal mining] and that is why we said police must also be given and have a dedicated police unit that is properly funded so that it can be able to perform this [task].

JEREMY MAGGS: Yet nothing is happening on that front. So if that’s the case, it means that … ?

SAHLULELE LUZIPO: No, there are people who have been arrested. I can tell you now, there are people who have been arrested. In fact, when we were in Welkom, even members of the South African National Defence Force (SANDF), two of them were arrested because they were escorting those people. That is now at a high level …

JEREMY MAGGS: Mr Luzipo, it’s a massive problem and you’re telling me two people have been arrested, you’re not even scratching the surface, if you’ll excuse the pun …

SAHLULELE LUZIPO: Come on, I’m saying two officials, including two officials of the SANDF, I don’t think you got me correctly. I’m saying two officials, or you wanted the officers from the South African National Defence Force to be more than two?

The extent of the problem is that when you’ve got people who are the last defence of this country, whether it is one being found also participating in this activity, it therefore says it is, yes, I agree, an alarming problem.

I can’t count how many people from SAPS (South African Police Services) that you would’ve found, even to the highest office, by the way, there are suspicions. If you go to Mpumalanga, part of the people who are supposed to be below the provincial commissioner, were fingered also to be part of the people who are responsible for illegal mining activities.

JEREMY MAGGS: Mr Luzipo, we’re going to have to leave it there. Thank you very much.